SSBM Conversation Around Melee

[BeastMode]

So people are saying that Melee is better than Ultimate. I have one question: HOW?!!?? Ultimate has all previous characters PLUS new ones!!! How is Melee STILL better?!!?? Is it because of the different technique things you can do? Ice Climbers were hyped when they first appeared in the E3 Ultimate trailer, and then Ice Climbers just climbed down the mountain in popularity. Why? If they were included in 4, I’m sure the same thing would’ve happened. Wobbling still probably wouldn’t be a thing if they were included in 4. So why did everyone hype them if they (probably) knew that wobbling wouldn’t have been a thing? Why do people say that Melee was faster than Ultimate? How is it faster? Ultimate is a REALLY fast game, and I would imagine that Ultimate is the fastest Smash game yet, but apparently that’s not true. As you can see, I’ve never played or seen much footage of Melee (because I’m never able to find any), so I’m having a hard time understanding these statements/assumptions. If anyone can just help me understand why/how any of these statements/assumptions are true (if they are). Any help is appreciated. Thanks!

 

[Artisan]

If you watch any game of competitive Melee stocks get lost really fast and there's more of them because of that. Ledge mechanics are different, the game has more technical options and sure there's less characters but that means the average hype is higher if you like that character and there's a lot of really good Melee players and without them carrying the game it wouldn't be looked on as a good game. When I play Melee I notice there's more hitstun and you can rack up more damage easier because you can't react as well when you get hit making a whole array of possible combos out of weak hits into one strong hit. Ultimate has a lot more basic/shorter combos and a lot more defensive options that come out quicker. Also footage of Melee is everywhere. Especially on YouTube.

 

[BeastMode]

If you watch any game of competitive Melee stocks get lost really fast and there's more of them because of that. Ledge mechanics are different, the game has more technical options and sure there's less characters but that means the average hype is higher if you like that character and there's a lot of really good Melee players and without them carrying the game it wouldn't be looked on as a good game. When I play Melee I notice there's more hitstun and you can rack up more damage easier because you can't react as well when you get hit making a whole array of possible combos out of weak hits into one strong hit. Ultimate has a lot more basic/shorter combos and a lot more defensive options that come out quicker. Also footage of Melee is everywhere. Especially on YouTube.

Yeah, but I a) can’t find any footage (somehow) and b) I think Ultimate is a lot more balanced than Melee (but then again, not all characters are all balanced equally. How can you balance them all equally with so many characters), and yeah, maybe the unbalanceness of Melee is what gives it its identity, but the balanced parts of Ultimate gives it hype (ironically) (in my opinion) because you don’t know what’s gonna happen next because wobbling (correct me if I’m wrong) slowed down Melee and Brawl (I think wobbling was in Brawl. Right?) a LOT, and you knew that it was gonna happen, and because of that in my opinion, makes me think that Ultimate is the fastest and most hyped when watching Smash game. Although since I haven’t seen any footage of it, I can be entirely wrong. That’s just what I’m thinking about people saying all that stuff about Melee. It’s really hard to understand how fast that game was and all of the techniques and stuff without playing it or seeing any footage of it. Do you understand where I’m coming from?

 

[Artisan]

Two top tiers duke it out. The more broken characters in Melee were pretty much equaled in strength imo. Mostly because they are all really fast. Jigglypuff had good airspeed, Fox/Falco had a good kit, Marth had range and kill power, Sheik had lots of fast high-knockback moves and grab combos. Wobbling to me is like an extended combo because that's what it is but when Nana dies you're really helpless so it's kinda balanced. It was really slow and made execution easier but now desync combos are fast and harder and do you really wanna see less Ice Climbers? Not even Amiibos do those.

There are still bad matchups in Ultimate. Some characters really struggle to kill. At higher skill levels the games seem equally balanced as all things should be. Some characters get edge guarded really easily. Little Mac and Sheik are basically non-existent.

 

[BeastMode]

Two top tiers duke it out. The more broken characters in Melee were pretty much equaled in strength imo. Mostly because they are all really fast. Jigglypuff had good airspeed, Fox/Falco had a good kit, Marth had range and kill power, Sheik had lots of fast high-knockback moves and grab combos. Wobbling to me is like an extended combo because that's what it is but when Nana dies you're really helpless so it's kinda balanced. It was really slow and made execution easier but now desync combos are fast and harder and do you really wanna see less Ice Climbers? Not even Amiibos do those.

There are still bad matchups in Ultimate. Some characters really struggle to kill. At higher skill levels the games seem equally balanced as all things should be. Some characters get edge guarded really easily. Little Mac and Sheik are basically non-existent.

True, and thanks for the footage! After I watch this I’ll give you my opinion.

 

[BeastMode]

True, and thanks for the footage! After I watch this I’ll give you my opinion.

Yeah, I guess you’re right. But it just seems like Ultimate is still faster. It just seems like it requires less % to kill in Melee due to blast zones being smaller than Ultimate. I only say this because in that video they only got a few hits in and they were already at like 100% and then they died, where Ultimate seems faster when it comes to more combos faster but they do less damage. Yes, it takes a LONG time to kill someone (unless you spike them) but there’s more mix ups and combos you can do in Ultimate (from what it looks like in this video) to keep the game interesting. I was bored of this because the Falco kept doing the same thing over and over again. Damage until Fox is at like 100%, Fox gets launched, edge guard either by the blaster or spiking. But when I watch Ultimate, it seems fast paced, and you can (almost) never predict what they’re gonna do (at least if you’re me) and do lots of combos to keep the crowd occupied (except for the swordboi Fire Emblems and Fox). Maybe it’s just because Fox and Falco as a character just got boring after a while and because of that, these battles were a little boring because they’re a one or two trick pony. But still, it was very fast paced and I got a gist of how Melee ran and looked. For the time I guess it was really good. Their (Fox’s and Falco’s) gameplay is just boring to play as and watch as a whole. Maybe that’s the problem? But, hey, that’s just me. That was just one video. Maybe that’s not how Melee is and they just were bad Melee players. I don’t know. Or maybe I could just be watching it from the wrong angle.

 

[Artisan]

Yeah, I guess you’re right. But it just seems like Ultimate is still faster. It just seems like it requires less % to kill in Melee due to blast zones being smaller than Ultimate. I only say this because in that video they only got a few hits in and they were already at like 100% and then they died, where Ultimate seems faster when it comes to more combos faster but they do less damage. Yes, it takes a LONG time to kill someone (unless you spike them) but there’s more mix ups and combos you can do in Ultimate (from what it looks like in this video) to keep the game interesting. I was bored of this because the Falco kept doing the same thing over and over again. Damage until Fox is at like 100%, Fox gets launched, edge guard either by the blaster or spiking. But when I watch Ultimate, it seems fast paced, and you can (almost) never predict what they’re gonna do (at least if you’re me) and do lots of combos to keep the crowd occupied (except for the swordboi Fire Emblems and Fox). Maybe it’s just because Fox and Falco as a character just got boring after a while and because of that, these battles were a little boring because they’re a one or two trick pony. But still, it was very fast paced and I got a gist of how Melee ran and looked. For the time I guess it was really good. Their (Fox’s and Falco’s) gameplay is just boring to play as and watch as a whole. Maybe that’s the problem? But, hey, that’s just me. That was just one video. Maybe that’s not how Melee is and they just were bad Melee players. I don’t know. Or maybe I could just be watching it from the wrong angle.

Fox/Falco are probably the least entertaining to watch. Marth and Sheik are pretty fun and Jigglypuff is only fun when you see Rest obliterate.

 

[Samster]

Yea, like Artisan said, a lot of people like it more than Ultimate mainly for it’s competitive scale. Ultimate was always the game that Nintendo tried to make comfortable for casuals, but also competitive for the elite gamers. However, Melee always worked better, mostly because of all the different combos that you could do (which aren’t in Ultimate), and wave dashing as well (which is in Ultimate, but so dumbed down, there’s really no use for it anymore).

Plus, I mean, come on. Who doesn’t love those nostalgic graphics? Am I right? ;w;