Do you think grinding is poor gameplay design?
- Thread starter Marc
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28142
Nintendo 3DS Legend
Towns Folk
Depends on how it's done, if it's specifically done to pad out gameplay time to make a longer game, sure. That's just being lazy.
Otherwise, it's pretty complicated and runs down to a very tight base by base basis, and ofc differs from player to player. Imo, if it serves a good purpose and isn't bloating for the sake of bloating and it's fair, I say that's fine.
Example: Assassins Creed Odyssey specifically, quite a few people complain that there's too much grinding in the game. However, those are the kind of people who just want to go through the absolute base story and expect to get through it perfectly fine. If you're someone like me who just, plays the game as intended (not speedrunning the main quest line..) then there's like, no grinding at all. I'm actually overlevelled in my second playthrough without trying.
And that's honestly a common complaint with games that have fair grinding, "I can't speedrun the absolute basics of the game to the end". Essentially just outing themselves that they don't care much about the game or the world, if you play an open world rpg, why would you skip the open world or the RPG part? Naturally there's a ton of RPG games which do require grind (And it does seem to be more and more "required" for the genre with AA/AAA games), Death end re;quest is one that comes to mind. Good game, but does rely on grinding a fair too much, level jumps for bosses is insane.
Persona 4 gold I've kept on trying to get into, but the grind for that game honestly scares me, all the management, the grinding, all of that. It's artificially bloating the game a huge amount and is even worse than warframe, but the game under all that still is really damn fun.
Also depends on what genre it is, RPGs tend to be very artificially bloated with grind nowadays and that's just.... an expected thing? Though tbh I think that can be mostly chalked down to AAA's getting more and more lazy, grind is just an incredibly easy solution for design.
But yeah, in my opinion, if grind is partially or fully optional, or "hidden" under just exploring, doing side things, generally just playing the game, I like that. Or even if there's no grind at all, a game can still be good.
Otherwise, it's pretty complicated and runs down to a very tight base by base basis, and ofc differs from player to player. Imo, if it serves a good purpose and isn't bloating for the sake of bloating and it's fair, I say that's fine.
Example: Assassins Creed Odyssey specifically, quite a few people complain that there's too much grinding in the game. However, those are the kind of people who just want to go through the absolute base story and expect to get through it perfectly fine. If you're someone like me who just, plays the game as intended (not speedrunning the main quest line..) then there's like, no grinding at all. I'm actually overlevelled in my second playthrough without trying.
And that's honestly a common complaint with games that have fair grinding, "I can't speedrun the absolute basics of the game to the end". Essentially just outing themselves that they don't care much about the game or the world, if you play an open world rpg, why would you skip the open world or the RPG part? Naturally there's a ton of RPG games which do require grind (And it does seem to be more and more "required" for the genre with AA/AAA games), Death end re;quest is one that comes to mind. Good game, but does rely on grinding a fair too much, level jumps for bosses is insane.
Persona 4 gold I've kept on trying to get into, but the grind for that game honestly scares me, all the management, the grinding, all of that. It's artificially bloating the game a huge amount and is even worse than warframe, but the game under all that still is really damn fun.
Also depends on what genre it is, RPGs tend to be very artificially bloated with grind nowadays and that's just.... an expected thing? Though tbh I think that can be mostly chalked down to AAA's getting more and more lazy, grind is just an incredibly easy solution for design.
But yeah, in my opinion, if grind is partially or fully optional, or "hidden" under just exploring, doing side things, generally just playing the game, I like that. Or even if there's no grind at all, a game can still be good.
Artisan
Hard At Work
Forum Moderator
If there was any instance grinding was needed to progress in a game, there's always that grey area where it's because the player didn't play well enough. If the player doesn't want to grind he can go play another game. Every game does experience a little differently and it's to train the player as well to get used to those habits. Games are all about the experience, the hero's journey. I'm going to use an extreme example. "Licensed Bakugan Switch Exclusive" is a real time strategy/RPG game and the battles are overly repetitive, only really follow the show and character design, and I've been looking at the Treehouse presentation and they go over how it's about collecting and strategy but when I read a review it really is all about time and how much you really want to be invested in it (it got poor reviews). Pokemon DLC really did the opposite because you can play the DLC before a majority the main story and grind that way and it would probably be way more fun when you're done. That being said "Switch Exclusive" had a new take on a formula I've never seen.
The player can't grind on bosses in most games though so do you think someone would rather do that or lose and get frustrated every time when they come back? Honestly it's a matter of perspective and on a grand scale in the end people just adapt whether it's the game or the player.
The player can't grind on bosses in most games though so do you think someone would rather do that or lose and get frustrated every time when they come back? Honestly it's a matter of perspective and on a grand scale in the end people just adapt whether it's the game or the player.
jona1003
The one with the legal n-word pass
Towns Folk
Duffy
Nintendo 3DS Legend
Towns Folk
In my opinion, grinding is only necessary as a game mechanic if there is a reason for it. If you need to grind to improve a game skill, like in a combat game then yes it is a good mechanic. In other games like RPGs, the need for grind often means the game isn't balanced well and the enemies are over leveled for a certain point of the game (just bad design). Sometimes grindy missions are added specifically to add more time to a game, which is just padding and unfortunate that some games get away with it. Many online games specifically cause grinding to keep players coming back, and often to incentivize players to pay to "skip the grind" the they artificially created. I hate when they do these type of things (star wars battlefront 2, avengers, etc.), It usually ruins otherwise potentially good games.
Deepak
Professional procrastinator
Towns Folk
I’m ok with grinding, but too much grinding becomes absolutely boring. It can be used as a filler every now and then by the developer but if grinding is 50% of the game, then thats definitely lazy. But some people LIKE grinding. Like monster hunter games have lots of grinding. But people enjoy that, so more game are made. But i’m ok with a moderate amount of grinding because once you finish grinding, you feel a small sense of accomplishment.
Mizunil
Born at a young age
Towns Folk
It really does vary on the game, and how much grinding it has. Does the grinding improve the gameplay, and is it in a entertaining amount? Those are really the only two questions I'd use personally to determine if its used in a good manner.
For example, Pokémon Mystery Dungeon is a (Sky/Darkness/Time) good example of grinding done correctly. If you skip most of the enemies in the dungeon, then you'll most likely have to grind in the future. This feature is also used wisely because the game leaves time between the next storyline progression time (about a 2-5 random missions on the board) for you to do missions, which is technically grinding, but its made so it doesn't actually feel like it. It feels natural, like you're realistically passing time as a exploration member in game and obtaining exp.
Although there are people who enjoy grinding so it can change according to personal preference as well. The article is probably referring to games that put grinding in just to increase the gameplay time, or something of the sort.
So ultimately, it really changes depending on how its used.
For example, Pokémon Mystery Dungeon is a (Sky/Darkness/Time) good example of grinding done correctly. If you skip most of the enemies in the dungeon, then you'll most likely have to grind in the future. This feature is also used wisely because the game leaves time between the next storyline progression time (about a 2-5 random missions on the board) for you to do missions, which is technically grinding, but its made so it doesn't actually feel like it. It feels natural, like you're realistically passing time as a exploration member in game and obtaining exp.
Although there are people who enjoy grinding so it can change according to personal preference as well. The article is probably referring to games that put grinding in just to increase the gameplay time, or something of the sort.
So ultimately, it really changes depending on how its used.
phofufury
idk
Towns Folk
Imo, grinding in games keeps me hooked, at least for the most part. Some games, like Destiny and Destiny 2 are full of grinding. Its fun for a time, especially Destiny 2. For this game, it can get very repetitive, same enemies, same bosses, and all the extension packs seem like the same story. The best part of Destiny 2 was the main story, that was really good. Other games like Minecraft, though may have a smaller size of grinding, and Terraria, do it well. In Minecraft, you grind for XP and ores (there is a really cool infinity ore machine that you can build, but you need to grind to get 64 of that ore, easiest is iron and redstone, but diamond and gold can be difficult) and Terraria same thing. They make it fun.
Other games, like roguelikes, also make fun, if done right. One example, Cave Blazers, is a very fun roguelike dungeon game. Certain items may be very hard to get, but the fact that you have to start all over when you die keeps me playing it.
Other games, like recently, The Avengers, was lazy game making. They copied Destiny, and it didn't work out. They thought that adding a loot based system and heavy amounts of grinding will keep players. Nope. Instead, many players left because it was monotonous and boring. Some of the mechanics weren't even working either, as one player had an issue with the tower climb grind. Apparently he was on the last stage, (there were more than 10 levels to past and once completed you get special gear) and it glitched out on him. He reset many times and was on this grind for hours, only to find out that the last stage won't even work. So much for that special gear, even other's had the same issue.
Tbh, grinding is only fit for some games, and for some audiences. Not every game should be a grinding loot based game, and if there is a grinding game, it has to be enjoyable and not a chore.
Other games, like roguelikes, also make fun, if done right. One example, Cave Blazers, is a very fun roguelike dungeon game. Certain items may be very hard to get, but the fact that you have to start all over when you die keeps me playing it.
Other games, like recently, The Avengers, was lazy game making. They copied Destiny, and it didn't work out. They thought that adding a loot based system and heavy amounts of grinding will keep players. Nope. Instead, many players left because it was monotonous and boring. Some of the mechanics weren't even working either, as one player had an issue with the tower climb grind. Apparently he was on the last stage, (there were more than 10 levels to past and once completed you get special gear) and it glitched out on him. He reset many times and was on this grind for hours, only to find out that the last stage won't even work. So much for that special gear, even other's had the same issue.
Tbh, grinding is only fit for some games, and for some audiences. Not every game should be a grinding loot based game, and if there is a grinding game, it has to be enjoyable and not a chore.
eonia
into the next dream
Towns Folk
depends, there are examples like the persona series from 3 onwards, where instead of grinding, it feels like you are working to make better use of your "dungeon day "
there are others that have grinding, but the game has good sidequest so you are doing something worth your time while you grind
there are other games that woul will need to grind a lot but you can feel the effects of a single upgrade very fast ,so you dont need to kill the same things a trillion things now, you can do it five now, then three later,
some where you can not grind, simply winning the battle that appear in the way to where you want to go is enougth,
others where you cant grinds you must use your resourses wisely to finish the game
and there are others where the grinding is simply killing the same thing a trillion times to advance past a single boss and the benefits of a single level are very insignificant, wich gets old very fast
there are others that have grinding, but the game has good sidequest so you are doing something worth your time while you grind
there are other games that woul will need to grind a lot but you can feel the effects of a single upgrade very fast ,so you dont need to kill the same things a trillion things now, you can do it five now, then three later,
some where you can not grind, simply winning the battle that appear in the way to where you want to go is enougth,
others where you cant grinds you must use your resourses wisely to finish the game
and there are others where the grinding is simply killing the same thing a trillion times to advance past a single boss and the benefits of a single level are very insignificant, wich gets old very fast