BlackRapier
New Kid on the Block
Towns Folk
A female Link?
- Thread starter Demon_skeith
- Start date
Bluefoot
I'm Not A Pikachu
Towns Folk
Hmm. Well. I'm kinda torn now, after reading everything you guys have been saying here.
To be perfectly honest, I originally was of the though that no, Link is a dude and will always be a dude, but I'm seeing some great points to support the argument that Link could, in fact, be portrayed as a female.
If what has been said about the Hero's Spirit is true, then there is absolutely no reason Link couldn't be a girl at some point.
One thing I keep seeing is this- "Link's supposed to be the literal link between the player and the game itself!" Yup. Totally agree with that point. Which gives Nintendo all the more reason to add in a female Link to the Zelda story. I wouldn't like it if it was a sort of character pick a la Pokémon, but if there was some sort of option, maybe even a separate story line for the female version, that would be interesting.
Pardon my bringing a non-Nintendo game in as an example, but let's take a look at Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic for a moment. There's a gender choice in there (among other thing, yes), and there really aren't many differences between the stories o chat male player character and the female. The only true differences were some dialogue with members of your party and the romance choices, but other than those, it was basically the same game, just with a different gender player model. Literally nothing changes about the outcome of the adventure- you still kick butt and (depending on your choices in the game) save/rule the galaxy.
Now, tell me again why Nintendo can't do something like that with a Zelda game?
To be perfectly honest, I originally was of the though that no, Link is a dude and will always be a dude, but I'm seeing some great points to support the argument that Link could, in fact, be portrayed as a female.
If what has been said about the Hero's Spirit is true, then there is absolutely no reason Link couldn't be a girl at some point.
One thing I keep seeing is this- "Link's supposed to be the literal link between the player and the game itself!" Yup. Totally agree with that point. Which gives Nintendo all the more reason to add in a female Link to the Zelda story. I wouldn't like it if it was a sort of character pick a la Pokémon, but if there was some sort of option, maybe even a separate story line for the female version, that would be interesting.
Pardon my bringing a non-Nintendo game in as an example, but let's take a look at Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic for a moment. There's a gender choice in there (among other thing, yes), and there really aren't many differences between the stories o chat male player character and the female. The only true differences were some dialogue with members of your party and the romance choices, but other than those, it was basically the same game, just with a different gender player model. Literally nothing changes about the outcome of the adventure- you still kick butt and (depending on your choices in the game) save/rule the galaxy.
Now, tell me again why Nintendo can't do something like that with a Zelda game?
Blue Knight
Water Spirit
Towns Folk
Link is a "link between the player and the game", not a player's avatar. You don't insert yourself in him, you put yourself on his shoes.
Likewise, there is nothing in the incarnation process that implies that his race nor gender can change; and so far everything points towards not being able to. See, just like Zelda is the goddess reborn (and so far has remained Hylian and female) Link is the goddess' chosen hero reborn (and has also remained Hylian and male, no exceptions).
Likewise, just like all Zeldas are related to each other (note that every princess being called Zelda doesn't mean each one is *the* Zelda, the weilder of the Triforce of Wisdom and reincarnation of Hylia) all Links are either heavily implied or downright stated to be related to each other by blood (the lineage of the knights of Hyrule) - yes, even WW!Link - and so far, there aren't any exceptions, either.
Furthermore; appearance changes are, in fact, due to art direction changes - just like what happens to other established characers like Mario, Samus, Kirby and others, their designs change over time. So, it's also likely that their actual, in-universe appearance is always the same, and we only see it differently due to the game's art style. Proof of this is that characters who ARE the same person, or items, change drastically between games (Like Ganondorf in OoT/WW/TP, and the Master Sword in all games) with no reason other than artistic change.
So, tl;dr, nothing on the lore provides evidence that neither Link nor Zelda can actually change set parameters between incarnations, neither gender, nor race. Likewise, neither of them can be random bystanders - they're always related.
Likewise, there is nothing in the incarnation process that implies that his race nor gender can change; and so far everything points towards not being able to. See, just like Zelda is the goddess reborn (and so far has remained Hylian and female) Link is the goddess' chosen hero reborn (and has also remained Hylian and male, no exceptions).
Likewise, just like all Zeldas are related to each other (note that every princess being called Zelda doesn't mean each one is *the* Zelda, the weilder of the Triforce of Wisdom and reincarnation of Hylia) all Links are either heavily implied or downright stated to be related to each other by blood (the lineage of the knights of Hyrule) - yes, even WW!Link - and so far, there aren't any exceptions, either.
Furthermore; appearance changes are, in fact, due to art direction changes - just like what happens to other established characers like Mario, Samus, Kirby and others, their designs change over time. So, it's also likely that their actual, in-universe appearance is always the same, and we only see it differently due to the game's art style. Proof of this is that characters who ARE the same person, or items, change drastically between games (Like Ganondorf in OoT/WW/TP, and the Master Sword in all games) with no reason other than artistic change.
So, tl;dr, nothing on the lore provides evidence that neither Link nor Zelda can actually change set parameters between incarnations, neither gender, nor race. Likewise, neither of them can be random bystanders - they're always related.
Pandaxclone2
Pokemon Sprite Artist Hobbyist
Towns Folk
Your points can be just as easily be held true on the contrary; while it's true that there's nothing implying gender and race could be changed, there's nothing implying it can't be changed either. And do keep in mind that Skyward Sword's Hero's Spirit thing was set up quite recently, so the fact that there's a lot of male Hylian Links around means little to nothing. All it suggests is that there's been a lot of male Hylian Links around, not that race had anything to do with this discussion in the first place. That applies with Zelda as well.
Your point on bloodlines? I don't really see this as an issue at all, plus while it is implied with some Links that they are related to one another, it is not implied with all of them. Otherwise you're telling me that OOT Link did the nasty sometime during the game before he kicked the bucket and the Downfall timeline took place. Wind Waker Link if anything could possibly have an indirect bloodline but not a direct one since the non-existence issue. Plus if you really think he's related then why does he need to jump through hoops to find the Triforce of Courage pieces when it should just be inside of him all along, like any other Link? Ditto with ALBW Link as while it's true LttP put them back together, Zelda and Ganon seem to have their pieces while Link's is just not with him. Wat?
Same goes for artistic style, which while it's true that art direction changes character designs that doesn't discredit the idea. I'd say the Ganondorf one has at least half a point but also consider that he hasn't looked like anything else other than his pig-beast form or his default Gerudo form, and none of that has changed even with the OOT/WW/TP artstyles. Link and Zelda on the other hand have gone through quite a few different traits, hair colors and heck, even Link was right-handed in Skyward Sword.
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Blue Knight
Water Spirit
Towns Folk
Not that it completely rules it out, but that there's absolutely no indication that race nor gender nor physical attributes nor core personality traits can change amongst incarnations, while the fact that those have remained consistent both with him and other characters indicates the contrary.
And it doesn't have to be direct descendants, just bloodline. Fact is, the spirit of the hero hasn't manifested on random people, but everyone has been implied to be of noble or heroic descendance, direct or indirect.
The Triforce isn't really much of an argument given that it's by no means forced to be attached to him, that he was chosen (on a single game of the whole continuity) by it doesn't mean he can't lose it, only that it has affinity with him (proven when he travels back in time in OoT, he loses the ToC he gained in the AT, as shown by it being in pieces there, and the ToC divides once more in the CT, as shown when he has it again in the ending, and Zelda and Ganondorf have theirs, as well.) And it can always be removed even after being chosen, as proven by Hilda, Ganondorf, Yuga and others when they steal fragments.
Ganondorf has retained his default Gerudo form... And Link and Zelda have retained their Hylian forms, as well. Ganondorf's (the Gerudo) comparatively minor changes are due to him being much newer than Link and Zelda, and not having nearly as many appearances; but he *has* changed in body shape and height, no magic involved, despite being the same person on these 3 games. Same for Link being right-handed, artstyle and gameplay supersede character design, but that doesn't mean they actually change from an in-universe standpoint.
And it doesn't have to be direct descendants, just bloodline. Fact is, the spirit of the hero hasn't manifested on random people, but everyone has been implied to be of noble or heroic descendance, direct or indirect.
The Triforce isn't really much of an argument given that it's by no means forced to be attached to him, that he was chosen (on a single game of the whole continuity) by it doesn't mean he can't lose it, only that it has affinity with him (proven when he travels back in time in OoT, he loses the ToC he gained in the AT, as shown by it being in pieces there, and the ToC divides once more in the CT, as shown when he has it again in the ending, and Zelda and Ganondorf have theirs, as well.) And it can always be removed even after being chosen, as proven by Hilda, Ganondorf, Yuga and others when they steal fragments.
Ganondorf has retained his default Gerudo form... And Link and Zelda have retained their Hylian forms, as well. Ganondorf's (the Gerudo) comparatively minor changes are due to him being much newer than Link and Zelda, and not having nearly as many appearances; but he *has* changed in body shape and height, no magic involved, despite being the same person on these 3 games. Same for Link being right-handed, artstyle and gameplay supersede character design, but that doesn't mean they actually change from an in-universe standpoint.
Pandaxclone2
Pokemon Sprite Artist Hobbyist
Towns Folk
I wonder how much longer we're gonna bounce this back and forth like a battle of bottles and bug nets with Ganondorf?
The fact that those have remained consistent is like it's been said, well before reincarnation was brought into this. Even if there's been many male Links, there now opens the possibility of being female Links. Plus the games do tend to leave big gaps between their titles (BotW anyone?) in which countless other Links could've been cycled through. And is bloodline still a problem? You can't have bloodlines without men and women through the generations, so it's entirely possible for a female Link to be born.
The Triforce isn't just going to stick to anybody while it's in pieces, they have only stuck to Link, Zelda and Ganondorf when split apart. Downfall timeline kind of has a pass on it since Ganondorf gets them all again, but the Adult and Child Timeline both still have the Triforce pieces usually hidden away on their respective persons. Wind Waker is especially jarring about this since the Triforce of Courage should logically have gone to his next courageous bloodline, but it never does and thus we enter an "Era without a Hero". Even that much indicates that the Hero of Spirits as we know it is gone, with no way to come back. Even if they can be removed the fact remains that they generally start with their respective owners and if stolen are usually taken back.
And again, Ganondorf's changes are not really drastic; he still remains the red-haired green skinned Gerudo we've always known since OOT. Let's compare some pictures, shall we?
Those look like God of War blades. 
They all appear to be quite similar in appearance, clothes and armour non-withstanding. The only art style of Ganondorf who's hard to pin down is Wind Waker, which is understandable since he's wearing some very baggy robes. Otherwise his nose, arms and body weight appear to have changed (and even that last one can be changed relatively easily if you eat enough.)
Link and Zelda's art styles throughout the games, even justified with changes in art direction do get more varied than this. Besides even if it were completely justified that doesn't mean they couldn't use it to their advantage as a plot device.
Anyway say what you will, only the lack of evidence is in itself circumstantial evidence towards there not being a female Link. The door has been left ajar for Nintendo in the future if they so choose to go with that, and it would basically fit in without much issues beyond audience feedback.
The fact that those have remained consistent is like it's been said, well before reincarnation was brought into this. Even if there's been many male Links, there now opens the possibility of being female Links. Plus the games do tend to leave big gaps between their titles (BotW anyone?) in which countless other Links could've been cycled through. And is bloodline still a problem? You can't have bloodlines without men and women through the generations, so it's entirely possible for a female Link to be born.
The Triforce isn't just going to stick to anybody while it's in pieces, they have only stuck to Link, Zelda and Ganondorf when split apart. Downfall timeline kind of has a pass on it since Ganondorf gets them all again, but the Adult and Child Timeline both still have the Triforce pieces usually hidden away on their respective persons. Wind Waker is especially jarring about this since the Triforce of Courage should logically have gone to his next courageous bloodline, but it never does and thus we enter an "Era without a Hero". Even that much indicates that the Hero of Spirits as we know it is gone, with no way to come back. Even if they can be removed the fact remains that they generally start with their respective owners and if stolen are usually taken back.
And again, Ganondorf's changes are not really drastic; he still remains the red-haired green skinned Gerudo we've always known since OOT. Let's compare some pictures, shall we?
They all appear to be quite similar in appearance, clothes and armour non-withstanding. The only art style of Ganondorf who's hard to pin down is Wind Waker, which is understandable since he's wearing some very baggy robes. Otherwise his nose, arms and body weight appear to have changed (and even that last one can be changed relatively easily if you eat enough.)
Link and Zelda's art styles throughout the games, even justified with changes in art direction do get more varied than this. Besides even if it were completely justified that doesn't mean they couldn't use it to their advantage as a plot device.
Anyway say what you will, only the lack of evidence is in itself circumstantial evidence towards there not being a female Link. The door has been left ajar for Nintendo in the future if they so choose to go with that, and it would basically fit in without much issues beyond audience feedback.
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Bluefoot
I'm Not A Pikachu
Towns Folk
Sorry, @Derpyderpofderps, I think this has to be said- you're sounding like a broken record. You keep providing the same arguments over and over, and you're basically talking in circles.
Also, just thought I'd nitpick at a point of yours- you keep bringing up both Mario and Samus as examples of characters to somewhat compare Link to. I understand that your trying to say the no matter what, Link is Link is Link, blah, blah, blah... but Mario, Kirby, and Samus are all the same person in every game they're in.
Also, just thought I'd nitpick at a point of yours- you keep bringing up both Mario and Samus as examples of characters to somewhat compare Link to. I understand that your trying to say the no matter what, Link is Link is Link, blah, blah, blah... but Mario, Kirby, and Samus are all the same person in every game they're in.
Pandaxclone2
Pokemon Sprite Artist Hobbyist
Towns Folk
@Bluefoot If you summon him directly the vicious cycle will continue.
Personally I just find it important to keep an open mind about it. There's nothing directly against it and they've pretty much set themselves up in case so who can say where the road goes?
Personally I just find it important to keep an open mind about it. There's nothing directly against it and they've pretty much set themselves up in case so who can say where the road goes?
Blue Knight
Water Spirit
Towns Folk
That's what happens when my points keep being shoved aside by "BUT NOTHING CONTRADICTS IT WAAAH" ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Ultimately, I follow Nintendo's sight of Link (and their other characters) and they see him as one individual, Hylian, male, who lives multiple lives, being reborn in different eras. Same with Zelda. Not as some random, melleable mass. Even characters who don't explicitly reincarnate have remained the same. We don't have a human, male Epona, for example.
For the record, the concept of reincarnation is much older than SS, as shown as far as removed lines from the ending of TP.
Like I said, the Triforce isn't attached to anyone. So far, it's only been passed down to TP!Link, TP!Zelda and CT!Ganondorf, this happened when OoT!Link left the AT - the Triforce from that timeline stayed there, but his was shattered, lost. No longer with him. Ganondorf and Zelda kept their's, and in the case of the latter, it got passed down to her descendants. WW!Link didn't get it since the ToC was shattered.I wonder how much longer we're gonna bounce this back and forth like a battle of bottles and bug nets with Ganondorf?
The fact that those have remained consistent is like it's been said, well before reincarnation was brought into this. Even if there's been many male Links, there now opens the possibility of being female Links. Plus the games do tend to leave big gaps between their titles (BotW anyone?) in which countless other Links could've been cycled through. And is bloodline still a problem? You can't have bloodlines without men and women through the generations, so it's entirely possible for a female Link to be born.
The Triforce isn't just going to stick to anybody while it's in pieces, they have only stuck to Link, Zelda and Ganondorf when split apart. Downfall timeline kind of has a pass on it since Ganondorf gets them all again, but the Adult and Child Timeline both still have the Triforce pieces usually hidden away on their respective persons. Wind Waker is especially jarring about this since the Triforce of Courage should logically have gone to his next courageous bloodline, but it never does and thus we enter an "Era without a Hero". Even that much indicates that the Hero of Spirits as we know it is gone, with no way to come back. Even if they can be removed the fact remains that they generally start with their respective owners and if stolen are usually taken back.
And again, Ganondorf's changes are not really drastic; he still remains the red-haired green skinned Gerudo we've always known since OOT. Let's compare some pictures, shall we?
Those look like God of War blades.
They all appear to be quite similar in appearance, clothes and armour non-withstanding. The only art style of Ganondorf who's hard to pin down is Wind Waker, which is understandable since he's wearing some very baggy robes. Otherwise his nose, arms and body weight appear to have changed (and even that last one can be changed relatively easily if you eat enough.)
Link and Zelda's art styles throughout the games, even justified with changes in art direction do get more varied than this. Besides even if it were completely justified that doesn't mean they couldn't use it to their advantage as a plot device.
Anyway say what you will, only the lack of evidence is in itself circumstantial evidence towards there not being a female Link. The door has been left ajar for Nintendo in the future if they so choose to go with that, and it would basically fit in without much issues beyond audience feedback.
Now, when OoT!Link goes to the CT, the Triforce splits once more to correct the error, going to him, and the other two chosen ones. The ToC never shatters at this point, and it gets passed down to TP!Link, same with TP!Zelda.
Ultimately, Link is never a random schmuck, he pops up when Zelda does, not everyone in the Zelda universe can be a hero, only him. WW!Link is usually used as "proof" of the contrary, but the fact that he is also descended from knights, has very high aptitude for combat even at young age, looks identical to the hero of legend and is accepted by both the Master Sword and the Triforce, it's clear that he's another incarnation of Link.
All the implications about how incarnation happens with Link, Zelda and Ganondorf goes against the idea of them changing at all. The only changes we have seen are artstyle changes and things that come with lifestyle, that are in no way related to the actual individuals.@Bluefoot If you summon him directly the vicious cycle will continue.
Personally I just find it important to keep an open mind about it. There's nothing directly against it and they've pretty much set themselves up in case so who can say where the road goes?
Also, for all intents and purposes, Zelda could take place in the Star Wars universe, as a virtual reality. Nothing goes against it, after all ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Pandaxclone2
Pokemon Sprite Artist Hobbyist
Towns Folk
Now you're just being ridiculous. Nintendo can do what they like with their own franchise but Zelda popping up in a Star Wars universe wouldn't happen for obvious legal reasons.
What implications do you see about the incarnations of Link, Zelda and Ganondorf? Re-incarnation as a rule of thumb generally allows you to re-incarnate into any living entity. Obviously Nintendo aren't going to be making the trio into a bunch of stag-beetles anytime soon, but different genders between incarnations are in their ballpark now and isn't too out there for them to try. It ultimately doesn't matter if the series implies through the static genders of the trio that this could never happen (or at least would certainly happen a lot more likely than your Star Wars/Zelda crossover would); what matters is they've worked towards making it a viable option through Skyward Sword (TP may have had the idea first but it was ultimately never implemented). Beforehand we didn't even know if there was re-incarnation but now it's been introduced to the franchise.
I don't see why you're continuing the bloodline talk. We get it, Links are usually related. Adult Timeline doesn't have the Hero's Spirit though, so even if WW Link were related to Link he wouldn't be an incarnation of Link. Make sense? That's also why the Triforce of Courage broke up, because there was no-one it could go to.
Nintendo's sight of Link can waver too. They're not afraid to experiment and try out new things, like allowing Hyrule Warriors to be a thing or even Linkle from being released. Yes, Linkle is not Link officially (not that it'd matter since HW isn't canon) but it's blatantly obvious they're experimenting with the idea. Also saying they see him as one person really makes little sense since if they truly did go for that they wouldn't be dropping plot points all over the place about how the Links are usually different people. It would only make sense through the Hero's Spirit, so even then a female Link would still be Link.
Just keep in mind that fans of Mario would've never thought in their wildest dreams that Princess Peach would rescue Mario and would've dismissed it as bad fanon, but here we are now with Super Princess Peach.
EDIT: We both should really just drop this tennis match and let other members speak their mind on the matter. We've both given more than our fair share of input on this debate and it's clear what side of the field we're on so how about we just leave it at that?
What implications do you see about the incarnations of Link, Zelda and Ganondorf? Re-incarnation as a rule of thumb generally allows you to re-incarnate into any living entity. Obviously Nintendo aren't going to be making the trio into a bunch of stag-beetles anytime soon, but different genders between incarnations are in their ballpark now and isn't too out there for them to try. It ultimately doesn't matter if the series implies through the static genders of the trio that this could never happen (or at least would certainly happen a lot more likely than your Star Wars/Zelda crossover would); what matters is they've worked towards making it a viable option through Skyward Sword (TP may have had the idea first but it was ultimately never implemented). Beforehand we didn't even know if there was re-incarnation but now it's been introduced to the franchise.
I don't see why you're continuing the bloodline talk. We get it, Links are usually related. Adult Timeline doesn't have the Hero's Spirit though, so even if WW Link were related to Link he wouldn't be an incarnation of Link. Make sense? That's also why the Triforce of Courage broke up, because there was no-one it could go to.
Nintendo's sight of Link can waver too. They're not afraid to experiment and try out new things, like allowing Hyrule Warriors to be a thing or even Linkle from being released. Yes, Linkle is not Link officially (not that it'd matter since HW isn't canon) but it's blatantly obvious they're experimenting with the idea. Also saying they see him as one person really makes little sense since if they truly did go for that they wouldn't be dropping plot points all over the place about how the Links are usually different people. It would only make sense through the Hero's Spirit, so even then a female Link would still be Link.
Just keep in mind that fans of Mario would've never thought in their wildest dreams that Princess Peach would rescue Mario and would've dismissed it as bad fanon, but here we are now with Super Princess Peach.
EDIT: We both should really just drop this tennis match and let other members speak their mind on the matter. We've both given more than our fair share of input on this debate and it's clear what side of the field we're on so how about we just leave it at that?
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Bluefoot
I'm Not A Pikachu
Towns Folk
I wasn't saying that Zelda would pop up in a Star Wars game, actually. I was only using KotOR as an example of a game where the player character's gender didn't matter in regards to the story.
Anywho. Yes, I agree- the three of us have said enough on this matter. It's time to let others have a share in the discussion.
Fantivity
The Miitopia Emblem Designer
Towns Folk
I often wonder why there isn't a female link, but hey that's Nintendo for you link looks the same in each game despite being a different generation due to timelines. Same with Zelda Of course when the characters name is PRINCESS Zelda u can't make them male XD. I think the closest you are getting to a female Link is Linkle.