Should Nintendo allow Indie Developers like on Xbox Live ?
- Thread starter D4rkDragon
- Start date
D4rkDragon
Lemon Dragon
Towns Folk
Nice to see somebody who know at least how to print a line in C++, as C++ is the main language for video games (exception: Sony uses Java, and Microsoft uses C#.)
I wouldn't really mind as long as the eShop didn't become completely cluttered with pixel-based zombie games like Xbox Live Arcade.
Sure, now, XBLA is stuffed with Indie Games, and even some who have no use !
Nuke
Nintendo 3DS Legend
Towns Folk
@D4rkDragon Sony has BD-Java but I'm pretty sure they use C++. As well, Microsoft and Nintendo use C# in a more peripheral role via .NET and Unity, respectively...But primarily C++.
sodajet
Work-life balance is hard
Towns Folk
I doubt Nintendo will give development kits to anyone who claims they'll try to make something. If anyone is really interested in developing a game, they should just register as a small studio and try and get something that way. They could come up with a concept, get some funding from Kickstarter, and then persuade Nintendo to give them a SDK. Unfortunately, in today's world, it's difficult making games for the consoles you love unless you find a way to run the game on the 3DS without a dev kit.
D4rkDragon
Lemon Dragon
Towns Folk
Well, now that I think of it, there was also times where Nintendo (or the Dan Adelmann who left Nintendo yesterday) also asked developers to port their games or even homebrews to the recent platforms, Colors is an example of it, it is a Nintendo DS homebrew that became so popular that they ported it, and now, you should pay for it. So, if you were to make a small yet successful PC game, maybe Nintendo would ask you to port it to their consoles ?
But where Nintendo tends to keep away potential indie developers is the fact that you must either deal with the company, and small studios aren't sure of what to do, or pay the expensive SDK (includes the region-free development 3DS if you're working on a... 3DS game) that costs 5k+$, and that tends to keep indie people away, while on the Xbox 360, if you wanted to publish an indie game, well, you code your game (Development Kit is free, since it's basically a text editor + a game engine + a debugger, called XNA), and if you wanted to publish it, you would just have to pay 99$/year, if I remember, and that's why the Indie Marketplace on the 360 was full of games, and... apps (I'm serious).
So, I think that small indie studios will probably go more towards Microsoft or Sony (don't know for them, though) than Nintendo. Also, don't forget how hard are Nintendo's policies with the indies (there's an article on the net with Dan Adelmann's interview who explain it).
And, yes, I agree with you: developing on consoles is really hard, and if you don't want to go with the 5k+ dev kit, you have to find a way to run your homebrew somehow (legally, preferably).
fantanoice
The Hero in Green
Towns Folk
To answer the question in the title: Yes, and they do. They've improved the process since Wii/DS days so it's actually quite simple to do now. Of course, Nintendo do impose a level of quality control on their platforms, which considering some of the crap on platforms like Steam, this is actually a pretty good thing to have from the consumer perspective.
Anyway, I've got a friend who has self published on both 3DS and Wii U, and from what she told me, the process for getting licensed wasn't too difficult. What she did was:
- Contact Nintendo of Europe (they process developments from Europe, Australia, NZ, South Africa, and India) via email
- The Developer Representative replied and they organised a phone interview
- During the interview, he explained the application process, asked about her experience, and asked if she had a separate, lockable room in her house
The whole thing was pretty straight forward, and the only issue she had was that she had been involved on DSHack.org. Before getting signed up she needed to spend some time removing all her history from that, which makes sense because Nintendo don't want their developers making the next R4 or something.
After getting licensed, she bought the DevKits (Wii U was >$3k USD + customs, she didn't say the 3DS), and the DevUnits on top of that.
In all, the process was pretty simple, it just cost a lot of money.
Anyway, I've got a friend who has self published on both 3DS and Wii U, and from what she told me, the process for getting licensed wasn't too difficult. What she did was:
- Contact Nintendo of Europe (they process developments from Europe, Australia, NZ, South Africa, and India) via email
- The Developer Representative replied and they organised a phone interview
- During the interview, he explained the application process, asked about her experience, and asked if she had a separate, lockable room in her house
The whole thing was pretty straight forward, and the only issue she had was that she had been involved on DSHack.org. Before getting signed up she needed to spend some time removing all her history from that, which makes sense because Nintendo don't want their developers making the next R4 or something.
After getting licensed, she bought the DevKits (Wii U was >$3k USD + customs, she didn't say the 3DS), and the DevUnits on top of that.
In all, the process was pretty simple, it just cost a lot of money.
sodajet
Work-life balance is hard
Towns Folk
Unfortunately, there is a barrier for individual developers that I don't think will go away any time soon. Even if you were to create a game on another platform, Nintendo won't ask you to port it since there's no telling if you are even capable of developing for the 3DS in the first place. The only way to learn how to code a game for the 3DS is to buy the dev kit and register yourself as a developer or figure out how to run your own code on the 3DS. Since Option 2 is not possible right now, and will take years to figure out, I don't see any way to make 3DS games without forking over 5,000 dollars. I wish Nintendo would be more lenient with their policies because a lot of people have creative ideas for games and are ready to try and make a game, but can't. If I wanted to develop for Android, Google has already given me all the tools I need. Nintendo should at least consider giving a basic version of the SDK for people to try and make something. If they are successful in making a functional game, then maybe Nintendo should consider covering the costs of the full SDK so they can finish the game completely and publish it. Of course, the ever present threat of hackers makes this thought a mere dream. Who knows, maybe down the line it could happen.
D4rkDragon
Lemon Dragon
Towns Folk
I agree with you... Reminds me of the days where there was Family BASIC on the Famicom, or WonderWitch for the Wonderswan (a Japan-only handheld made by Bandai, rival of the Game Boy, but failed pretty hard), which allowed you to make games for the Famicom, allowing indies without having to deal with the SDK stuff or Nintendo, but it was Japan only.
And yes, "hackers" can be a potential threat, well, it depends of what kind of hacker you're referring to.
1st case, the general one: People who endorse piracy.
2nd case, lesser general: People who runs unsigned code in order to perform research on a platform
3rd case: People who makes homebrews.
But the problem is that Nintendo only sees the 1st case, and treats the 2nd one like the first. And sometimes, notices the 3rd case (case of Colors 3D).
*If they wouldn't like to share the full SDK, why not include a super-limited (features) SDK for way cheaper ? This way, people who makes homebrews wouldn't have to buy illegal stuff, and thus promote the 1st case.
Edit: didn't saw the part about the basic SDK, I made the same part in my post
. The part I'm talking about has the * symbol just before it.
sodajet
Work-life balance is hard
Towns Folk
I agree with you on the 3 types of hacker part. The problem is, if Nintendo does release a stripped down version of the SDK, will it a) have enough tools to actually develop a game without running into a ton of problems, b) be secure enough so hackers can't possibly exploit in some way, c) how can Nintendo verify if a user really wants to make games or has malicious intents. C is not a problem when you are dealing with an official studio, but when you are distributing a free dev kit, you have to make sure the wrong people don't end up getting it and using it to do harm (don't know how, but I'm pretty sure hackers can learn a lot if the got hands on a SDK). Hopefully Nintendo opens up the 3DS for homebrew one day, and we'll all finally get to make games for our favorite handheld.
D4rkDragon
Lemon Dragon
Towns Folk
Simply don't give the SDK access to the NAND and the System Settings. That's all. If it needs to export data to save, do it on a SD Card. Let the SDK access the CPU and the GPU, but not the NAND/Firmware (or put it in a read-only state).
And same here, I hope they'll open the 3DS for homebrews, even if it's when the 4DS (?) will be released, because it might be interesting to program on it without having to buy illegal stuff.
fantanoice
The Hero in Green
Towns Folk
If you're a competent programmer you should be able to transfer your skills from platform to platform.
Also, Nintendo are the only major console developer who don't ask for exclusivity rights when developing for their platform. When developing for XBLA or PSN you need to sign an agreement that states your game will only be available on their platform for x amount of months.
Literally no different to developing on any other existing software. If you want to work as a programmer for a company, you need to learn their system. If you want to develop for 3DS, you need to learn how the SDK works.
This really all comes down to Nintendo being very conservative with their systems (note: in my last post how it's a requirement to have a lockable room in your home/studio to get a license) and enforcing quality control. Without these, you get platforms filled with sub-par software; you can already see it a lot on the App Store and Google Play, and it's becoming more prevalent on Steam.
Literally the downside to having a platform that anyone can develop on is that anyone can develop on it, including people who have no idea what they're doing. Nintendo's practices are put in place so that they have the best chance of filling their platform with quality content, opposed to just filling the platform with content. After all, if you can - and are willing to - fork out $5k for a devkit, then that can in many ways show off the fact that your studio is confident in the project and keen to develop something of decent quality (and certainly says more than a $99 Apple Developer license). They want to be convinced that you can make something good before handing out their tools.
Also, when Nintendo publishes games, they usually go with studios with good track records, such as Platinum Games. Don't expect they're going to throw money at My First 3DS Title. If you need funding, there are avenues to get it, like other publishers (or Nintendo if you're super lucky), crowdfunding, self-funding, etc. It is worth mentioning that funding is one of the biggest hurdles for any independent studio, it isn't unique to the ones who develop for Nintendo platforms.
Finally, you can still build a game prototype without a 3DS SDK, so that's a bit of a cop out. If you think you've got something good, build something that shows it off, then go and show it off.
sodajet
Work-life balance is hard
Towns Folk
I agree that other platforms such as the App Store and Google Play Store make it really easy to release anything you want. However, Nintendo can easily enforce quality control by having an employee just look through game submissions and choose ones that have been made by a significant amount of time and effort. I think it's the $5k price tag that turns away people from making games for fun. Most people are willing to spend time and effort in making the game, but don't want to invest even more time just to get money to finish it and publish it on the console. Nintendo's rules do a good job of limiting a bunch of low-quality stuff on their eShop, but they might also turn away some quality ones too. I think Nintendo is still learning how to handle indie games for their eShop, and it might be a while until a common guy can make some games for the console. Right now, if anyone wants to publish games for a console, they have to be ready to invest a significant amount of money and time to do so, which is what most people can't afford to do.
fantanoice
The Hero in Green
Towns Folk
Google Play and the App Store get literally hundreds of new applications every day. If Nintendo opened their console up and got the same rate of submissions it would be completely unfeasible to monitor them all. This doesn't even consider Nintendo's concern with the younger market and needing to keep up with the various rating systems in the countries it does business in.
When I was working full time as a programmer, still without my degree, I was earning about $1.3k a fortnight, and that was considered low. Factoring out about half of that for rent and other living costs, with that rate the DevKit would probably be covered in about 4-6 months. That's not very long. Albeit I don't have kids or anything so that number can fluctuate, but you get the idea.
But while we're at it, you suggest that you don't need to invest money into publishing on App Store and such, which isn't true. You still need to pay for licensing on those, plus if you set up a studio you'll need to pay rent, electricity, and all that jazz. You need to familiarise yourself with the SDK which costs time, etc. Yes, it's less of an investment, but it isn't free either.
In fact, this article gives a good rundown of the sort of money a proper indie studio needs to invest to make a viable product, opposed to just being an everyday person messing around in their bedroom. These are the types of studios Nintendo want; though unfortunately being in a good dev team costs a whole lot more than simply buying a DevKit.
sodajet
Work-life balance is hard
Towns Folk
I think I understand why a free SDK really won't help much. It's more of a scarecrow to scare off people who don't really know much about game development. I think what most interested programmers want is a way to make small little games on their 3DS and make some profit off of it too (a 99 cent game). I guess that really won't ever happen both now or even when the 3DS is at the end of its life-cycle. That Polygon article showed how expensive it is to create a studio, and I guess if you want to make console games, you better make it your full-time job else you won't get anywhere. As for coders looking to release little mini-games, I guess the only thing Nintendo can do is point you to the App Store and let you go from there.