(Outdated) Battle for Champion Tournament Rules

[Marc]

For having legends: Danny, FirstSerpy, Zukrad, Evil.Wayne14breon, N
Against having legends: PK, Vii

I talked a few more things here

I'ma take a good look at it later

 

[Pk1410]

I honestly find it hard to understand some of the points being made of using legendary Pokemon.

I feel like most of you missed interpret Mark's example of Latios with hp fire. It's extremely unrealistic to believe that a perfect Latios with Hp fire is even possible to get. Now, key word there is "perfect". It is possible to get a hp fire latios just not with 30ivs/31 ivs. Getting a perfect latios overall is almost impossible. It's extremely unlikely to get a Latios with 5 perfect ivs and thinking that you can get one with hp fire is just nonsense. If you face one, then it's most likely hacked. Furthermore, a hacker with a brain knows that and will most likely cover it well so nobody notice it. How does that affect anything? Well someone with a perfect Latios that has hp fire clearly has the upper hand because he can basically get any Pokemon with any moves/stats he wants without people noticing it.

Another argument I've been seeing is that people say "We are all mlg pros here, if we aren't prepare to beat a perfect Latios then we don't deserve to be here." Let's for a second assume that we are all mlg pros here. Can someone please explain to me how are we all playing on equal terms if we are facing a perfect Latios that most likely nobody else have? Because I don't know about you guys, but I definitely want to play on equal terms regardless of being a mlg pro.

I mean, definitely that guy didn't just beat me because he had a hacked Latios with 31/31/31/31/31/31 vs my 31/16/27/31/31/29 Latios. Because you know those 2 ivs in speed definitely did not make a difference. That's what we call "skills or playing better" around here.

I am still yet to see a valid argument where someone tells me why won't I be in disadvantage for playing against a hacker that will be able to get any Pokemon with any moves and with any IVs he/she wants? That's what I really want someone to answer me.

Note: Sorry if I came as rude to anyone's point of view, I am just trying to get answers here. .-.

 

[Mr. Kream]

I honestly find it hard to understand some of the points being made of using legendary Pokemon.

I feel like most of you missed interpret Mark's example of Latios with hp fire. It's extremely unrealistic to believe that a perfect Latios with Hp fire is even possible to get. Now, key word there is "perfect". It is possible to get a hp fire latios just not with 30ivs/31 ivs. Getting a perfect latios overall is almost impossible. It's extremely unlikely to get a Latios with 5 perfect ivs and thinking that you can get one with hp fire is just nonsense. If you face one, then it's most likely hacked. Furthermore, a hacker with a brain knows that and will most likely cover it well so nobody notice it. How does that affect anything? Well someone with a perfect Latios that has hp fire clearly has the upper hand because he can basically get any Pokemon with any moves/stats he wants without people noticing it.

Another argument I've been seeing is that people say "We are all mlg pros here, if we aren't prepare to beat a perfect Latios then we don't deserve to be here." Let's for a second assume that we are all mlg pros here. Can someone please explain to me how are we all playing on equal terms if we are facing a perfect Latios that most likely nobody else have? Because I don't know about you guys, but I definitely want to play on equal terms regardless of being a mlg pro.

I mean, definitely that guy didn't just beat me because he had a hacked Latios with 31/31/31/31/31/31 vs my 31/16/27/31/31/29 Latios. Because you know those 2 ivs in speed definitely did not make a difference. That's what we call "skills or playing better" around here.

I am still yet to see a valid argument where someone tells me why won't I be in disadvantage for playing against a hacker that will be able to get any Pokemon with any moves and with any IVs he/she wants? That's what I really want someone to answer me.

Note: Sorry if I came as rude to anyone's point of view, I am just trying to get answers here. .-.

Pk1410, if you know how HP works, you can breed it, and if you can breed it, you can catch it; having an HP Fire Latios is no way nonsense, but it is complete nonsense to assume that one move is enough to have the upper hand over six other mon that should be prepped to handle any situation beforehand. Between that spread you picked and the "perfect" spread you specify there's no real difference. The difference in damage is <.1% to physical moves and your speed is lower by 1 point at level 50. You, and I mean specifically you, would have not gone into battle knowing that beforehand, and would not have left your Lati in to be fighting another. Would you not have had a switch ready? Would you not have planned for that beforehand? Pls tell me how that 31 speed or HP Fire Lati would hold the advantage in that situation.

OU teams are built to fight OU mon, the way I see it, Latios, Heatran, and all those others, should just be names in a list, and that's all there is to it.

 

[ultra]

@Pk1410 I never had a latias/latios beat me, or for any other mon for that matter, simply because it had a certain hp type. Not seeing how a 70 power move can cause such a great controversy. Don't put yourself in a situation where that can happen. Its called predicting correctly, and adjusting.

 

[Pk1410]

Pk1410, if you know how HP works, you can breed it, and if you can breed it, you can catch it; having an HP Fire Latios is no way nonsense, but it is complete nonsense to assume that one move is enough to have the upper hand over six other mon that should be prepped to handle any situation beforehand. Between that spread you picked and the "perfect" spread you specify there's no real difference. The difference in damage is <.1% to physical moves and your speed is lower by 1 point at level 50. You, and I mean specifically you, would have not gone into battle knowing that beforehand, and would not have left your Lati in to be fighting another. Would you not have had a switch ready? Would you not have planned for that beforehand? Pls tell me how that 31 speed or HP Fire Lati would hold the advantage in that situation.

OU teams are built to fight OU mon, the way I see it, Latios, Heatran, and all those others, should just be names in a list, and that's all there is to it.

I clearly stated that it is possible to get a Latios with hp fire. What I said it's getting a perfect latios with hp fire is nonsense.

You say .1% ? May I have a proper source? Because I feel like you are making up numbers at this point. Let me show you how much of a difference 31IVs vs 29IVs.

252 SpA Life Orb Latios Hidden Power Fire vs. 248 HP / 200 SpD Mega Scizor: 151-182 (85.7 - 103.4%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO (31 IVs SpA)

252 SpA Life Orb Latios Hidden Power Fire vs. 248 HP / 200 SpD Mega Scizor: 146-177 (82.9 - 100.5%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO (29 IVs SpA)

It's a huge difference if you ask me and that's assuming full health. By just having stealth rocks up numbers changes drastically.

31 vs 30 makes no difference. 30 is considered perfect as well because the stat doesn't lower.

By the way, one move can change everything. You should know that if you play Pokemon competitively.

 

[ultra]

I clearly stated that it is possible to get a Latios with hp fire. What I said it's getting a perfect latios with hp fire is nonsense.

You say .1% ? May I have a proper source? Because I feel like you are making up numbers at this point. Let me show you how much of a difference 31IVs vs 29IVs.

252 SpA Life Orb Latios Hidden Power Fire vs. 248 HP / 200 SpD Mega Scizor: 151-182 (85.7 - 103.4%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO (31 IVs SpA)

252 SpA Life Orb Latios Hidden Power Fire vs. 248 HP / 200 SpD Mega Scizor: 146-177 (82.9 - 100.5%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO (29 IVs SpA)

It's a huge difference if you ask me and that's assuming full health. By just having stealth rocks up numbers changes drastically.

31 vs 30 makes no difference. 30 is considered perfect as well because the stat doesn't lower.

By the way, one move can change everything. You should know that if you play Pokemon competitively.

1 iv Will matter. They affect EV spreads, which a 30iv mon will have a stat maxed at 1 whole number less than a 31iv at lv 50. (248evs utilizes every ev at 30 iv, while 252evs maxes out in 31 ivs) so it does matter. Even at level 50

 

[Zukrad]

I honestly find it hard to understand some of the points being made of using legendary Pokemon.

I feel like most of you missed interpret Mark's example of Latios with hp fire. It's extremely unrealistic to believe that a perfect Latios with Hp fire is even possible to get. Now, key word there is "perfect". It is possible to get a hp fire latios just not with 30ivs/31 ivs. Getting a perfect latios overall is almost impossible. It's extremely unlikely to get a Latios with 5 perfect ivs and thinking that you can get one with hp fire is just nonsense. If you face one, then it's most likely hacked. Furthermore, a hacker with a brain knows that and will most likely cover it well so nobody notice it. How does that affect anything? Well someone with a perfect Latios that has hp fire clearly has the upper hand because he can basically get any Pokemon with any moves/stats he wants without people noticing it.

Another argument I've been seeing is that people say "We are all mlg pros here, if we aren't prepare to beat a perfect Latios then we don't deserve to be here." Let's for a second assume that we are all mlg pros here. Can someone please explain to me how are we all playing on equal terms if we are facing a perfect Latios that most likely nobody else have? Because I don't know about you guys, but I definitely want to play on equal terms regardless of being a mlg pro.

I mean, definitely that guy didn't just beat me because he had a hacked Latios with 31/31/31/31/31/31 vs my 31/16/27/31/31/29 Latios. Because you know those 2 ivs in speed definitely did not make a difference. That's what we call "skills or playing better" around here.

I am still yet to see a valid argument where someone tells me why won't I be in disadvantage for playing against a hacker that will be able to get any Pokemon with any moves and with any IVs he/she wants? That's what I really want someone to answer me.

Note: Sorry if I came as rude to anyone's point of view, I am just trying to get answers here. .-.

You are really missing my point...

Of course you are in a disadvantage if you are using a Pokémon with not perfect IVs against a Pokémon with perfect IVs

With the Latios example, you would be in the same disadvantage if you were agains a 5IV legit Latios, not because they hacked, but because you don't have the perfect Latios

You could say the same with someone that didn't breed their Pokémon with someone that did.

I get what you were trying to point, but it doesn't have a lot to do with the topic. If you lost the speed tie, is not their fault for hacking, is because you didn't have a 31 IV in speed in Latios to begin with (and as someone that SR a lot, if you can't get the 5IVS, go always for the speed, which is the most important stat in the game)

In equal conditions (both with perfect Pokémon), the battle only comes down to skill (and hax), and the fact that one hacked and the other did not only affects how hard was to get those perfect Pokémon.

 

[ultra]

Why are you bringing in a non-perfect mon in a competive battle? That's on you.
I guess its safe to say we will agree to disagreee on everything

 

[3905]

Also on the topic of 'perfect' legendaries, how would we handle those in Sun/Moon when you can legitimately train your Pokemon's IVs... I certainly would not hope to just straight up ban all legends just because of the possibility of someone else hacking in the IVs while some of us would spend hours hoarding 'Bottle Caps' (not because we are James) to get the best IVs for our Pokemon.

Just a little something to keep in mind for future Sun/Moon official battles...

 

[Zukrad]

1 iv Will matter. They affect EV spreads, which a 30iv mon will have a stat maxed at 1 whole number less than a 31iv at lv 50. (248evs utilizes every ev at 30 iv, while 252evs maxes out in 31 ivs) so it does matter. Even at level 50

There is a difference between bewtween 31 and 30 in lv 100, at level 50, they are the same

I clearly stated that it is possible to get a Latios with hp fire. What I said it's getting a perfect latios with hp fire is nonsense.

You say .1% ? May I have a proper source? Because I feel like you are making up numbers at this point. Let me show you how much of a difference 31IVs vs 29IVs.

252 SpA Life Orb Latios Hidden Power Fire vs. 248 HP / 200 SpD Mega Scizor: 151-182 (85.7 - 103.4%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO (31 IVs SpA)

252 SpA Life Orb Latios Hidden Power Fire vs. 248 HP / 200 SpD Mega Scizor: 146-177 (82.9 - 100.5%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO (29 IVs SpA)

It's a huge difference if you ask me and that's assuming full health. By just having stealth rocks up numbers changes drastically.

31 vs 30 makes no difference. 30 is considered perfect as well because the stat doesn't lower.

By the way, one move can change everything. You should know that if you play Pokemon competitively.

That is quite an specific scenario, but to begin with, 31 or 29 IVs, you should never try to go for an unguaranteed scenario, unless you are in a situation where you have no switchings to this thing. The best play is to get it weakened by another partner before going for the HP Fire.

Which leads me to mi second point:

If you have a non perfect Pokémon, and you HAVE to play with it, you have to play around that. Instead of weakening Scizor until it is at 85, you have to get him at 82, which I assure you, those 3% extra are nothing to work around with, and you probably won't notice the difference when using a 31 IVs Latios or a 29 IVs one

 

[Mr. Kream]

I clearly stated that it is possible to get a Latios with hp fire. What I said it's getting a perfect latios with hp fire is nonsense.

You say .1% ? May I have a proper source? Because I feel like you are making up numbers at this point. Let me show you how much of a difference 31IVs vs 29IVs.

252 SpA Life Orb Latios Hidden Power Fire vs. 248 HP / 200 SpD Mega Scizor: 151-182 (85.7 - 103.4%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO (31 IVs SpA)

252 SpA Life Orb Latios Hidden Power Fire vs. 248 HP / 200 SpD Mega Scizor: 146-177 (82.9 - 100.5%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO (29 IVs SpA)

It's a huge difference if you ask me and that's assuming full health. By just having stealth rocks up numbers changes drastically.

31 vs 30 makes no difference. 30 is considered perfect as well because the stat doesn't lower.

By the way, one move can change everything. You should know that if you play Pokemon competitively.

Pk1410, no, I did not pull out a calculator verify that, didn't need to, the change in damage is still negligible as far as planning goes, and you pulling out a calculator to verify this only proves my point then, that you would have never gone into battle knowing this beforehand, and you would not have left your Lati to be killed by another, and you would have had a switch, or two, ready beforehand due to your planning. The point I'm making in saying this, is that you are playing to a certain standard; it makes no sense to not assume that we all are playing to the same standard, and that we are planning accordingly and taking these things into account beforehand.

 

[Pk1410]

You are really missing my point...

Of course you are in a disadvantage if you are using a Pokémon with not perfect IVs against a Pokémon with perfect IVs

With the Latios example, you would be in the same disadvantage if you were agains a 5IV legit Latios, not because they hacked, but because you don't have the perfect Latios

You could say the same with someone that didn't breed their Pokémon with someone that did.

I get what you were trying to point, but it doesn't have a lot to do with the topic. If you lost the speed tie, is because you didn't have a 31 IV in speed in Latios to begin with (and as someone that SR a lot, if you can't get the 5IVS, go always for the speed, which is the most important stat in the game)

In equal conditions (both with perfect Pokémon), the battle only comes down to skill (and hax), and the fact that one hacked and the other did not only affects how hard was to get thos perfect Pokémon.

On "equal conditions". However, you don't have equal conditions against a hacker. What I mainly trying to say is the availability to get a perfect Latios with hidden power fire is not fair vs a hacker. (Latios is just an example and so is hidden power) It's just not fair for anyone that spend hours to get a decent Latios because I honestly doubt any1 has a perfect 5 ivs Latios with perfect nature and specifically have hidden power fire.

Speed is not the most important stat. However, in some cases it can define a 1v1.


Edit: I can't keep up with all these posts at the same time D:

The Latios vs Scizor thing is just an example of how much of a difference 31iv vs 29iv can make. It's obvious that staying in is not the best choice or that there is others way to play around it. 1-2% is not irrelevant. I've been into way too many scenarios where I had survive by 1hp. Every single % matters even if it is a really small one.

 

[Zukrad]

So by reading all these points, I have made a list of pros and cons about allowing legendaries

Pros:
- More stable meta
- Less strict teambuilding

Cons:
- Not everyone has access to a competitive viable one (Which imo, is the ONLY reasonable argument against legendaries)
- The may be hacked

On "equal conditions". However, you don't have equal conditions against a hacker. What I mainly trying to say is the availability to get a perfect Latios with hidden power fire is not fair vs a hacker. (Latios is just an example and so is hidden power) It's just not fair for anyone that spend hours to get a decent Latios because I honestly doubt any1 has a perfect 5 ivs Latios with perfect nature and specifically have hidden power fire.

Speed is not the most important stat. However, in some cases it can define a 1v1.

No.
Considering that you have a perfect team, YOU HAVE equal conditions against any player, either a hacker, or a legit player. The ONLY difference is how easy you can get the team in comparision in how fast can get it a hacker, which doesn't affect the outcome of the match. If you were using a non perfect Pokémon in a battle, either legendary or not, you have greater chances to lose, but because you are using a non perfect Pokémon, doesn't matter if your opponent actually hacked or not.

(Also, I know is just an example, but, no one runs Hp Fire on Lati anymore, not even Psyshock. We found out that the most efficient set rn is Draco/Surf/Recover/Defog)

And yes, I do have a 31/0/31/30/31/30 Latios with defog and HP fire, but is from gen 4, so it was RNG abused... so I guess it doesn't count...

And you are completely wrong... Speed IS THE MOST IMPORTANT STAT IN THE GAME BY FAR

Have you ever wondered why high level tournament players speed creep their suicune up to 40 EVs or even more (Yeah, Suicune, a DEFENSIVE Pokémon runs that much speed, just to outspeed other Suicune), is because of that (I remember reading an article about it in the "Smog" I think)

 

[3905]

On "equal conditions". However, you don't have equal conditions against a hacker. What I mainly trying to say is the availability to get a perfect Latios with hidden power fire is not fair vs a hacker.

This applies to pretty much anything, not just legends.
I know what you're trying to get across. That it wouldn't be fair if a hacker entered and won with just hacked legends.
But it's also another thing to consider that even if those mons are hacked, they still have their own weaknesses, and whether you prepared to take advantage of those weaknesses or not is also something that is determined beforehand.

I do propose a small compromise though. Maybe we can restrict each team to 1 or 2 legends max (numbers adjustable), rather than a full team of them. From what I seen and tried, a lot of good teams probably only use 2 at most. Plus, you wouldn't have to worry about losing to someone that just legend spammed and also for some teams, you find the right pokemon (legend or not) that'll fit what you want it to do in your team.

 

[Zukrad]

This applies to pretty much anything, not just legends.
I know what you're trying to get across. That it wouldn't be fair if a hacker entered and won with just hacked legends.
But it's also another thing to consider that even if those mons are hacked, they still have their own weaknesses, and whether you prepared to take advantage of those weaknesses or not is also something that is determined beforehand.

I do propose a small compromise though. Maybe we can restrict each team to 1 or 2 legends max (numbers adjustable), rather than a full team of them. From what I seen and tried, a lot of good teams probably only use 2 at most. Plus, you wouldn't have to worry about losing to someone that just legend spammed and also for some teams, you find the right pokemon (legend or not) that'll fit what you want it to do in your team.

I can see this working out

Even tho I'm more inclined towards just allowing even a full team of legendaries, and a lot of teams rely on having 4 of them, I can see how this one could work.

And having 2 legendaries with good IVs is not hard at all (I mean, I have boxes of them, but maybe is just me, maybe I'm crazy and I like torturing myself by hearing the same Latios cry every minute for 14 days grinding a lot)

 

[Pk1410]

Idk how to double quote because I am a noob, so I will try to answer to both of you the best I can.

@Zukrad:
That's assuming you have equal terms, which is unrealistic. Having a 6iv Latios legitimately is nearly impossible. simple as that. You won't see that happening.

I sadly find it hard to believe you have a perfect Latios from gen 4. Anything coming from previous games especially Legendary Pokemon is hacked to me. But that's another topic for another day.

@N:
Right, I mean if you can hack Legends, then you can hack any Pokemon. However, there is a huge difference between them. The accessibility to 6iv regular Pokemon is nothing compared to being able to get 6iv Latios.

As for the compromise, I mean...I rather not but definitely a better solution.

 

[Zukrad]

Idk how to double quote because I am a noob, so I will try to answer to both of you the best I can.

@Zukrad:
That's assuming you have equal terms, which is unrealistic. Having a 6iv Latios legitimately is nearly impossible. simple as that. You won't see that happening.

I sadly find it hard to believe you have a perfect Latios from gen 4. Anything coming from previous games especially Legendary Pokemon is hacked to me. But that's another topic for another day.

*facepalm* but I said it RIGHT THERE

And yes, I do have a 31/0/31/30/31/30 Latios with defog and HP fire, but is from gen 4, so it was RNG abused... so I guess it doesn't count...

Seriously, 5 seconds of google

 

[Mr. Kream]

I'm not betting everyone here knows what RNG abuse is unless they've had to search trade boards, but that really is a discussion for another day.

 

[ultra]

I'd caste my support to a rule stating only one non-breedable pokemon but the red/blue orb+mega rayquaza is ban

 

[Mr. Kream]

I'd caste my support to a rule stating only one non-breedable pokemon but the red/blue orb+mega rayquaza is ban

Whoa, we aren't passing OU buddy, lol